Post by jonmoseley on Oct 17, 2006 2:27:17 GMT
There is no question that such leaders should repent to their followers and sheep. Of course, in saying this you are assuming an awful lot of things and being judgmental, assuming that they have something to repent for, which may out-strip reality. But without question.... repentance, forgiveness, healing, and reconciliation is a two-way street, or perhaps I should say an infinite-way street. Everyone should be repenting to everyone.
You make a keen observation that a Christian leader who keeps asking church members to repent , but NEVER, EVER, EVER repents himself or herself has something deply wrong.
Of course, a Christian leader cannot repent falsely just to make a point or egage in a stunt. It is theoretically posible that a Christian leader doesn't have much to repent of. But highly unlikely. Still, we can't expect a Christian leader to regularly repent once a month, on cue, as a silly ritual. That is why I said it the way that I did. A leader who NEVER repents, ever, is clearly messed up. Something is deeply wrong if you NEVER EVER see a Christian leader practicing what he or she preaches about repenting.
For example, Mark Caulk in Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill would frequently apologize for any mis-steps in the leadership of the Washington, D.C. Maranatha church.
As a "crew" leader (moving sound equipment in and out of the rented auditorium starting at dawn every other Sunday and later a sound board technician on other Sundays) I got to work very closely with Mark Caulk and others, because early on Mark Caulk was part of the worship team and rehearsed with us. We were all cranky after getting up very early, things always went wrong, eqipment would malfunction, some of the singers would oversleep and come in very late, etc., etc. Sometimes the hotel or school would mess up our arrangements. ONE TIME WE ARRIVED ONLY TO FIND THAT THE HOTEL HAD RENTED OUR ROOM TO SOMEONE ELSE. We had to re-group, head out to Oakton, Virginia, and reassemble later that day in the back yard of a home church pastor, Jim and Betsy Hagin.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER did I hear Mark Caulk say an unkind word or lose his temper or in any way act impolite or unkind. OFTEN Mark Caulk would apologize for his own mis-steps, maybe starting a song off wrong, giving a confusing instruction to the ushers or the set-up crew, etc. Mark Caulk was a gruff and strong personality, and he spoke with strength. But I can remember many occasions when he took responsibility himself for EVEN the slightest thing going wrong in the rehearsal or the set-up or the service. I can remember one of the singers arriving late more than once. She felt bad, of her own accord. But no one said anything critical, even though she was significantly late for rehearsal. (If you're out there, you know who you are. Just teasing.)
Mark Caulk later apologized when the Maranatha network disbanded.
Mark Caulks' explanation of the break-up of Maranatha included significant apologies of his own, including explicitly apologizing that he had not been able to shield us more from teh conflicts at the top.
Mark Caulk then also apologized through the most supreme sacrifice possible, by explicitly laying down his career and ministry for the flock. In his dramatic and emotional final meeting, which still gives me chills to recall it, and I choke up, Mark Caulk quoted from Jesus, tha the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. And with that, Mark Caulk laid down his ministry hoping that the Washington church would be able to move beyond controversy and grievances if Mark Caulk were to leave.
I was shocked to hear that (then) many weeks after the national ministry broke up, people were bashing Mark Caulk -- one of the reformers who had pushed for more freedom for us and against the legalism. Mark Caulk's announcement that perhaps people could heal better if he were not there was the first indication I had of the childish, unbiblical, and self-induglent grievances and attacks being UNFAIRLY dumped on one of the leaders of reform in Maranatha.
Sad to say, as seen by the childish whining and moaning here and elsewhere, Mark Caulk's hopes were in vain. The childish whiners continued to whine, even after Mark Caulk sacrficed his career, his ministry, his salary, his reputation, his honor, and the entire life that he had built, suffering public embarrassment, in order to try to end the grievances and the bitterness. In hindsight, it would have been beter for Mark Caulk to stay.
This is why I must confront the silly nonsense here and elsewhere. When an honorable man like Pastolr Mark Caulk SACRIFICES EVERYTHING and lays down his entire ministry, salary, public reputation, etc., and CHOOSES public disgracee FOR THE SAKE OF MANY OF YOU, and to benefit the people of God, explicitly following the example of Jesus in laying down His life to benefit others, in the hopes of bringing healing, the childish whining 15 years later comes into focus as thoroughly disgusting .
SHAME! How can I make it clear to you that a man like Mark Caulk is 10,000 times the Christian that the whiners will ever be?
If anyone was flawed in Maranatha, it was clearly Bob Weiner more than anyone else.
But I would gladly take the Weiners over the Whiners any day.
And I dare say that Jesus feels the same way. Jesus said so explicitly in the Book of Revelation.
You make a keen observation that a Christian leader who keeps asking church members to repent , but NEVER, EVER, EVER repents himself or herself has something deply wrong.
Of course, a Christian leader cannot repent falsely just to make a point or egage in a stunt. It is theoretically posible that a Christian leader doesn't have much to repent of. But highly unlikely. Still, we can't expect a Christian leader to regularly repent once a month, on cue, as a silly ritual. That is why I said it the way that I did. A leader who NEVER repents, ever, is clearly messed up. Something is deeply wrong if you NEVER EVER see a Christian leader practicing what he or she preaches about repenting.
For example, Mark Caulk in Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill would frequently apologize for any mis-steps in the leadership of the Washington, D.C. Maranatha church.
As a "crew" leader (moving sound equipment in and out of the rented auditorium starting at dawn every other Sunday and later a sound board technician on other Sundays) I got to work very closely with Mark Caulk and others, because early on Mark Caulk was part of the worship team and rehearsed with us. We were all cranky after getting up very early, things always went wrong, eqipment would malfunction, some of the singers would oversleep and come in very late, etc., etc. Sometimes the hotel or school would mess up our arrangements. ONE TIME WE ARRIVED ONLY TO FIND THAT THE HOTEL HAD RENTED OUR ROOM TO SOMEONE ELSE. We had to re-group, head out to Oakton, Virginia, and reassemble later that day in the back yard of a home church pastor, Jim and Betsy Hagin.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER did I hear Mark Caulk say an unkind word or lose his temper or in any way act impolite or unkind. OFTEN Mark Caulk would apologize for his own mis-steps, maybe starting a song off wrong, giving a confusing instruction to the ushers or the set-up crew, etc. Mark Caulk was a gruff and strong personality, and he spoke with strength. But I can remember many occasions when he took responsibility himself for EVEN the slightest thing going wrong in the rehearsal or the set-up or the service. I can remember one of the singers arriving late more than once. She felt bad, of her own accord. But no one said anything critical, even though she was significantly late for rehearsal. (If you're out there, you know who you are. Just teasing.)
Mark Caulk later apologized when the Maranatha network disbanded.
Mark Caulks' explanation of the break-up of Maranatha included significant apologies of his own, including explicitly apologizing that he had not been able to shield us more from teh conflicts at the top.
Mark Caulk then also apologized through the most supreme sacrifice possible, by explicitly laying down his career and ministry for the flock. In his dramatic and emotional final meeting, which still gives me chills to recall it, and I choke up, Mark Caulk quoted from Jesus, tha the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. And with that, Mark Caulk laid down his ministry hoping that the Washington church would be able to move beyond controversy and grievances if Mark Caulk were to leave.
I was shocked to hear that (then) many weeks after the national ministry broke up, people were bashing Mark Caulk -- one of the reformers who had pushed for more freedom for us and against the legalism. Mark Caulk's announcement that perhaps people could heal better if he were not there was the first indication I had of the childish, unbiblical, and self-induglent grievances and attacks being UNFAIRLY dumped on one of the leaders of reform in Maranatha.
Sad to say, as seen by the childish whining and moaning here and elsewhere, Mark Caulk's hopes were in vain. The childish whiners continued to whine, even after Mark Caulk sacrficed his career, his ministry, his salary, his reputation, his honor, and the entire life that he had built, suffering public embarrassment, in order to try to end the grievances and the bitterness. In hindsight, it would have been beter for Mark Caulk to stay.
This is why I must confront the silly nonsense here and elsewhere. When an honorable man like Pastolr Mark Caulk SACRIFICES EVERYTHING and lays down his entire ministry, salary, public reputation, etc., and CHOOSES public disgracee FOR THE SAKE OF MANY OF YOU, and to benefit the people of God, explicitly following the example of Jesus in laying down His life to benefit others, in the hopes of bringing healing, the childish whining 15 years later comes into focus as thoroughly disgusting .
SHAME! How can I make it clear to you that a man like Mark Caulk is 10,000 times the Christian that the whiners will ever be?
If anyone was flawed in Maranatha, it was clearly Bob Weiner more than anyone else.
But I would gladly take the Weiners over the Whiners any day.
And I dare say that Jesus feels the same way. Jesus said so explicitly in the Book of Revelation.