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Post by helpfulcommentary on Apr 8, 2006 18:07:03 GMT
I would not classify my overall time as "positive" but I would also not classify it as "negative" On the postive side a few points.. I have to say that very clearly God has used my time in EN in a lot of positive ways. For example, although I did not have an "arranged marriage" my wife was saved in part because of EN, and I love her very dearly, and am very thankful for her.
In addition, although I know it's been broadly abused, and I have experienced and witnesses some of it myself, that the idea that obedience to Christ implies respect fo authority (in every aspect of life) has really helped me.. My career for example has had a radical improvement as I've dealt with some rebellious attitudes hidden in my walk.
In addition, the understanding of cultural transformation has been very helpful to me. My previous understanding of the church was not very hopeful, and it was also not very impacting of the world around. After doing intensive personal study I've come to realize that while EN may be a bit out of balance on those issues, they have some very good points, and have shifted my general view, and am thankful for it.
Although, I'm tired out from a lot of the recurrant problems, and am ready to leave, these are elements that I know would have been very hard to gain otherwise. I would be eager to dialogue with anyone else who would classify their experience as "mixed"
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Post by StationAdministration on Apr 8, 2006 18:12:51 GMT
HelpfulCommentary.
I am sure that many people can identify with your position. I met my wife in an EN church in 1997. We have many postive experiences to share out of that.
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Post by helpfulcommentary on Apr 8, 2006 22:50:54 GMT
I would like to say this-- your experience of EN varies widely based on what chair you are sitting in. College Students are treated very differently than Families. Athletes and other important people are also treated differently. Paid leaders and unpaid leaders are treated differently. Senior Pastors are treated very differently than their various subordinates. Who knows how it feels to be on the apostolic team?
As the chair that I sit in has changed, my experience has changed.
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Post by helpfulcommentary on Apr 21, 2006 3:23:23 GMT
In reference to your questions, I'd like to keep this thread for its purpose of discussing the positive (or at least what I perceive as positive). There are plenty of other threads to dig into issues.
One positive for me has been that the authority teaching, has given me a more complete picture of child training. I feel equipped to fashion Godliness in my children, and so far have been very pleased with the results (trusting each year in God's grace, not bragging). Apart from EN, I don't think we would have even had the same burden for generational transfer, much less the tools...
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Post by Overseas Filipino on Apr 21, 2006 12:47:07 GMT
All this? How can we explain people's lives genuinely changed? If EN is also puffed up in authority, how can we explain a person sinking in drugs change overnight as he heard the good news in the church? How do we explain a young man previously without direction in life found hope in Jesus Christ, and is now leading a life that is relatively successful?
I can say that I have witnessed an amount of good in EN the past years - mainly seeing people's lives changed by the Lord.
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Post by StationAdministration on Apr 21, 2006 13:08:33 GMT
Helpfulcommentrary
I have edited my questions I posted to you in the spirit of keeping this section for positive feedback only as requested.
Overseas Fillipino, thank you for your postive testimony. If you could, could you kindly post your questions to a more relevant section. I am sure that many agree with you on your positive stuff and would also like to respond to ytour questions.
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Post by cupatea on Jul 19, 2006 1:52:13 GMT
Thought I'd add here. I think one of the reasons that so many of us found it hard to left Every Nation was because there was quite a bit of good happening. Lordship and Obedience (to God) were things that were never taught in my recollection in any other church I attended. The importance of relationships and the ministry of all believers are other things that come to mind as having been either learnt or reinforced within EN. Maybe it is because we came into MSI in Asia and also after many years of ministry in inter-denominational ministries outside of EN but I honestly believe reform is possible for EN. In the words of Steve Murrell: The goal of church discipline is restoration of the fallen.
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Post by checkup on Aug 13, 2006 19:56:10 GMT
I just started attending an Every Nation Church in Indianapolis and loved the experience - then someone told me to quit going - "it's a cult". This is why I'm here - investigating. It looks like a lot of the same people post to this - so does that tell me it's just sour grapes? Is EN really a cult?
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Post by timspong on Aug 14, 2006 18:04:49 GMT
I would like to say this-- your experience of EN varies widely based on what chair you are sitting in. College Students are treated very differently than Families. Athletes and other important people are also treated differently. Paid leaders and unpaid leaders are treated differently. Senior Pastors are treated very differently than their various subordinates. Who knows how it feels to be on the apostolic team? As the chair that I sit in has changed, my experience has changed. Your talking about deficiencies in human nature. It would be very difficult for a church to legislate on how what level of respect you are supposed to give to different people. Again it sounds like a personal pride issue not a church issue.
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Post by timspong on Aug 14, 2006 18:16:35 GMT
I just started attending an Every Nation Church in Indianapolis and loved the experience - then someone told me to quit going - "it's a cult". This is why I'm here - investigating. It looks like a lot of the same people post to this - so does that tell me it's just sour grapes? Is EN really a cult? I attended an EN church for years and there is nothing cultish about it. All I see are a bunch of people here who have had their pride hurt in some way and blaming it all on the church. If they were being honest to themselves, they would at least post their own name. If they want true reform, why hide behind a web site? Tell the leaders what you think, they are not that unapproachable. If you are true to yourself and God, show no fear and confront your Pastor. If you are on solid scriptural ground, nothing is going to move you and change will happen. You will never find a perfect church, all are flawed. However, you can help to make your church the best it can possibly be. Gossiping and dwelling in self pity will do nothing positive for anyone. Ooops, sorry that started off as an answer to your question then ended up as a general rant. I did a google search and came accross this site by accident and had to say my .02c
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Post by timspong on Aug 14, 2006 18:25:47 GMT
I just started attending an Every Nation Church in Indianapolis and loved the experience - then someone told me to quit going - "it's a cult". This is why I'm here - investigating. It looks like a lot of the same people post to this - so does that tell me it's just sour grapes? Is EN really a cult? P.S. Please feel free to email me if you want an unbias opinion from an ex EN member. my email is timspong@yahoo.com
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Post by youngnmighty on Aug 15, 2006 16:25:50 GMT
timspong, i found that the real propaganda/biases lay in the EN church i attended. if it wasn't for these boards and other postings, i'd think my suspicions about their weak theology would never have been corrected.
yes, these boards are biased. because they start from the increasingly clear premise that every nation has unbiblical practices which need reform. Hence the boards are title Every nation Reform....
i think the strength of EN is that they have intermingled the really bad theology with sound mainstream doctrines. Hence for the newcomer and 'baby' christian, you have no idea where their teachings on apostles come from and you don't ask, you don't know that their prophets and prophets their associated with have given countless false prophecies, etc etc (Just read FACTNET and do your own net searches).
If read FACTNET you'll discover that some of their really bad leaders or associates have since been kicked out of the movement. so its a dynamic system, aspects of it are always changing.
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Post by philiprosenthal on Aug 15, 2006 18:58:34 GMT
With regard to the question of whether or not EveryNation is a cult, FactNet has some good threads. I think we must be careful to differentiate: i. Not all churches are the same. Some appear very cultish. Others appear healthy. ii. My observation has been that things are mostly healthy on ground level, but gets more and more cultish as you get up the hierachical ladder. Only those who climb the ladder find out about the crazy authoritarianist beliefs and behaviour that happens at and near the top. (That would not be to paint everyone near the top as cultish, but a lot are). I think most of those posting here and at FactNet have had some experience of the crazy behaviour at senior levels.
You thus probably wouldn't notice most of this stuff if you were only superficially involved in the church such as attending Sunday meetings.
If you want to test whether your church is cultish or not, go to your pastor and ask if the church can have periodic congregational accountability meetings where people can raise issues and discuss problems. If not, you probably have a problem, although you will have to investigate further to find out why.
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Post by paulhansen on Feb 10, 2007 14:18:03 GMT
Hi Philip Just a few points I need to bring up to you with regard to His people and Every nation. I also was a member from 1992 until 2005. I must admit that although you say you where in leadership there i can't say I remember you. I find it very interesting how opposed you are to the EN church's. 1. I personally was at a leadership meeting of all the cell leaders and department heads (prob about 600 members) when Rice was explaining what a disciple of Jesus is as well as what it means to disciple others.At this point Paul was still the senior pastor. It was a very challenging sermon. What was very interesting was, when he had finished, he asked us "who here is personally discipling someone else or being discipled" . To my horror only about ten percent of the people put there hands up. This is the context of the "purple book". Our so called super church was filled with hot air and didn't resemble the biblical make up of the church. Jesus' intention for the church is a discipleship based body ,not a pastor centered one tottally dependant on a charismatic orator.The apostle Paul says that people said he wasn't very persuasive and impressive in person.. The five fold ministry is there to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. This was new to all the HP leaders.It still shocks me today that we could look and feel so good about our church yet we had strayed to a cult like church.We had great teaching yes but we lacked in personal application of the great commission.I was a cell leader for about three years and we where taught by ............... that cell groups where to be friendship groups.All teaching was to be done by Bible school and sunday services.This was in total antithesis to biblical teaching. What would have happenned to HP had it not been for the biblical foundations in the Purple book? If you ever read it you will find that it only contains bible verses with very little personal interpretation. I firmly believe the HP of early times was built on faulty foundations. They lasted in good times but when the flood waters rose it crumbled. 2. Gareth Stead now is senior pastor but was raving about how incredibly excited he is to be running a discipleship group of new christians he had pesonally witnessed to. One of which was a waiter .How many pastors do you know that have a passion to disciple a small group. Phillip God wants you to have that sought of passion to be an ambassador for Him and to make disciples. 2tim2:2 3. I am now at the full gosple church in Fish Hoek so I am not trying to sell the message of a church group but I have a passion to share the love and person of Jesus Christ with the world. There was some wonderfull teaching that we got in the early years at HP but we lacked in having a firm relationship with Jesus Christ. We where excited about the wrong things. We believed we could make a difference in the world but we wher'nt able to make disciples of Jesus. We strived to be area leaders and department heads but lacked the passion to see the Lordship of Jesus in our and others lives.I was so inspired and challenged by the Purple book that I now minister at the school assemblys twice a week at the Masipumele High and primary schools. 4. I am aware of the fact that EN has problems but I can assure you that all churchs have identical problems. God wants to use you as a catalyst for change and not for destruction. I think the spirit you take is not condusive to influencing others to repentance. I can see that you have a passion for justice and truth. My prayer is that God willgive you to have a passion for people.Rick Joyner had vision of a huge mountain full of christians in battle with armies of the devil that where at the base of the mountain. Different areas of the mountain represented different church groups(methodists, presbetarian, etc).There arrows where hitting the targets . At one side of the mountain where those that also where called christians that where critisising the others but where not fighting the enmy. God rebuked him by saying that he must stop judging and critisising other church denominations as they where all fighting in the same battle. Phillip keep your focus on the battle at hand .I can see that you normally do. 5. His People has huge challenges, baggage and hurdles but I am convinced that as they stand now they are on a far firmer ground than even at our so called heights.I know that you feel hurt and disapointment. but you need to move on .Your years in the early HP where not in vain. Paul Daniel was an awesome teacher and I pray that God will raise up many men of that callibre. We can understand how King Davids mighty men must have felt when he fell. Paul Daniel was a wek man like David, like you and me. We need to make sure that our lives are built on the rock.Jesus says this is a man that hears the word of God and does what it says.The man who built his house on the sand also heard the word but chose to ignore it . Philip be single minded in your vision to extend God's kingdom as you are doing. Jesus said go and make disciples . Baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to obey all that I have commanded. Never in the History of the world has there been a greater need for christian discipleship or mentoring as the world calls it. This is the principle message that I got from Gareth Stead at His People. We need to pray that other churches too will get the vision to train and raise up disciples who in turn can make disciples Read 2 Tim 2:2 Love in Christ Paul Hansen
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Post by paulhansen on Feb 10, 2007 14:19:35 GMT
Hi Philip Just a few points I need to bring up to you with regard to His people and Every nation. I also was a member from 1992 until 2005. I must admit that although you say you where in leadership there i can't say I remember you. I find it very interesting how opposed you are to the EN church's. 1. I personally was at a leadership meeting of all the cell leaders and department heads (prob about 600 members) when Rice was explaining what a disciple of Jesus is as well as what it means to disciple others.At this point Paul was still the senior pastor. It was a very challenging sermon. What was very interesting was, when he had finished, he asked us "who here is personally discipling someone else or being discipled" . To my horror only about ten percent of the people put there hands up. This is the context of the "purple book". Our so called super church was filled with hot air and didn't resemble the biblical make up of the church. Jesus' intention for the church is a discipleship based body ,not a pastor centered one totally Dependant on a charismatic orator.The apostle Paul says that people said he wasn't very persuasive and impressive in person.. The five fold ministry is there to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. This was new to all the HP leaders.It still shocks me today that we could look and feel so good about our church yet we had strayed to a cult like church.We had great teaching yes but we lacked in personal application of the great commission.I was a cell leader for about three years and we where taught by ............... that cell groups where to be friendship groups.All teaching was to be done by Bible school and Sunday services.This was in total antithesis to biblical teaching. What would have happened to HP had it not been for the biblical foundations in the Purple book? If you ever read it you will find that it only contains bible verses with very little personal interpretation. I firmly believe the HP of early times was built on faulty foundations. They lasted in good times but when the flood waters rose it crumbled. 2. Gareth Stead now is senior pastor but was raving about how incredibly excited he is to be running a discipleship group of new Christians he had personally witnessed to. One of which was a waiter .How many pastors do you know that have a passion to disciple a small group. Phillip God wants you to have that sought of passion to be an ambassador for Him and to make disciples. 2Tim2:2 3. I am now at the full Gospel church in Fish Hoke so I am not trying to sell the message of a church group but I have a passion to share the love and person of Jesus Christ with the world. There was some wonderfully teaching that we got in the early years at HP but we lacked in having a firm relationship with Jesus Christ. We where excited about the wrong things. We believed we could make a difference in the world but we went able to make disciples of Jesus. We st rived to be area leaders and department heads but lacked the passion to see the Lordship of Jesus in our and others lives.I was so inspired and challenged by the Purple book that I now minister at the school Assembly's twice a week at the Masipumele High and primary schools. 4. I am aware of the fact that EN has problems but I can assure you that all Church's have identical problems. God wants to use you as a catalyst for change and not for destruction. I think the spirit you take is not condusive to influencing others to repentance. I can see that you have a passion for justice and truth. My prayer is that God willgive you to have a passion for people.Rick Joyner had vision of a huge mountain full of Christians in battle with armies of the devil that where at the base of the mountain. Different areas of the mountain represented different church groups(methodists, presbetarian, etc).There arrows where hitting the targets . At one side of the mountain where those that also where called Christians that where critisising the others but where not fighting the enmy. God rebuked him by saying that he must stop judging and critisising other church denominations as they where all fighting in the same battle. Phillip keep your focus on the battle at hand .I can see that you normally do. 5. His People has huge challenges, baggage and hurdles but I am convinced that as they stand now they are on a far firmer ground than even at our so called heights.I know that you feel hurt and disapointment. but you need to move on .Your years in the early HP where not in vain. Paul Daniel was an awesome teacher and I pray that God will raise up many men of that callibre. We can understand how King Davids mighty men must have felt when he fell. Paul Daniel was a wek man like David, like you and me. We need to make sure that our lives are built on the rock.Jesus says this is a man that hears the word of God and does what it says.The man who built his house on the sand also heard the word but chose to ignore it . Philip be single minded in your vision to extend God's kingdom as you are doing. Jesus said go and make disciples . Baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to obey all that I have commanded. Never in the History of the world has there been a greater need for christian discipleship or mentoring as the world calls it. This is the principle message that I got from Gareth Stead at His People. We need to pray that other churches too will get the vision to train and raise up disciples who in turn can make disciples Read 2 Tim 2:2 Love in Christ Paul Hansen
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