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Post by speakword on May 4, 2006 12:40:12 GMT
Ulyankee reports on her blog that she has noticed that there has been recent and frantic efforts to rewrite the EveryNation entry at Wikipedia. Have a look. Like me, she has followed the usual rubbish that some leaders in Every Nation spout. Nevermind the fact that "Spin Doctor" is not one of the 5-fold gifts. Every Nation has some of the very best. A friend of mine was told by his fellow eldership that psychological counseling was not part of the 5-fold. Ironic, considering psychological manipulation seems to be a tool that many have become the victim of. nomoreshepherding.blogspot.com/In the last 2 years I have learned that there were some real big whoppers hidden from us and I hope to see these published sooner than later. In my 2 years out of the organization I have noticed when visiting the various webpages/sites etc. that many provide a potted history or a revised history of the past: all with the aim of making themselves look good. It is all part of the creation myth of Every Nation. If I had known the extent of the corruption and evil stupidity in Maranatha I would never have joined His People. Reading the testimonies of people like Tik and John Jones I can see why they are concerned about how people are treated in Every Nation as a whole as well. BTW, if anyone has the previous versions of the Wikipedia entries feel free to post them here or perhaps forward them to this sites administrators. I see that there is already one here. Perhaps others have been saved? For those in the loop, you will know the scandal section on EN's wikipedia entry is just the tip of the iceberg! The scandals are also indicative of a deeper malaise which I think this site and others touch on. Comparing notes with a friend yesterday I was reminded how many EN staffers have been abused. You know what I am talking about: crushing your prospects, dwarfing y ou down to the size they want you, burdening till bent over like a hunchback and putting you in your place. Well guys, if they have got you, you need to read Leviticus 19 and 20. A Royal Priest needs to be intact, if you know what I mean.
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Post by philiprosenthal on May 4, 2006 13:29:33 GMT
A friend of mine at His People Cape Town, commented on the handling of Paul Daniels so-called 'sabbatical' in the USA, that His People's public relations was better than that of any politician.
There is also the problem of apparent 'amnesia' of many leaders. One long time His People Cape Town leader gave his testimony to the congregation. Only problem with the testimony was that all reference to 12 years of close personal discipling and other involvement Paul Daniel was edited out.
It seems that there is the same problem in the USA with trying to erase the memory of Maranatha.
I argue this is bad for the reason Rice Broocks gives in his 'EveryNation in our generation' book: 'Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it'. Rice is correct. But has he learned? If so, then why do we see the same complaints about his ministry as about Maranatha? I challenge Rice to post on this web site or on his own blog exactly what did he learn from the failure of Maranatha? Those of you who have access to him, please ask him this question.
I argue therefore that we sadly need to painfully examine the history of our movement to avoid repeating the same mistakes. EveryNation/Maranatha/MorningStar/His People has had more than its fair share of scandals and abuses. We need to examine the root causes of this and try to stop more occuring. That requires some thinking and open conversation - something which is a serious offence in many EveryNation churches. Also, where there is historic sin, the movement needs to repent of it and discipline those who have sinned. No more covering up. Lets look at the truth.
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Post by helpfulcommentary on May 4, 2006 18:39:52 GMT
I don't see any frantic efforts at sanitizing. A couple of times people came along and deleted the scandals section and it was put right back, but they seemed to be really random events.
Also, Wiki allows you to show any historical version.
I believe personally, by the way that the whole maranatha discussion there is not really appropriate or helpful.
ulyankee be glad to hear what you think the frantic efforts were...
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Post by philiprosenthal on May 4, 2006 19:04:10 GMT
Helpfulcommentary
There are repetitive patterns of behaviour in both His People and MorningStar, which tend to copy that of the leaders who mentored them. It is very sad, but I see many of my friends copying the manipulative leadership style of Paul Daniel. To deal with the problem, I feel we need to look at history and try see where things went wrong - then try teach people how to lead and how not to lead.
Philip
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Post by speakword on May 4, 2006 20:04:27 GMT
I admit that the attempts to edit and censor the Wikipedia entry may be the work of one or two misguided individuals, but as in my dying days in the Johannesburg church, I can't help but feel that where there's smoke there's fire and that the scandals mentioned in the Wikipedia entry are not the whole story and perhaps indicative of a deeper malaise. I don't buy the "growing pains" theory.
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Post by ulyankee on May 5, 2006 14:13:05 GMT
helpful commentary, I don't know as if I would necessarily characterize the changes as frantic - that's Speak's interpretation... but if one looks at the history it seems that other than the Scandals section (which as you've noticed was restored by Wiki moderators) the other sections of the entry have been cleaned up, and links to non-official EN sites have been removed, including the historical timeline, the Forerunner, this forum, and Tik's blog (which were called "misleading links"), to removing references to EN's being a leader in the New Apostolic Reformation (sorry, have this documented on tape, and more than once) and the founders' history in Maranatha (sorry, that is irrefutable!!!). The editor characterized those FACTS as "erroneous and biased contributions," - see here so you can get an idea of what I mean: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Every_Nation&diff=51335386&oldid=50358985I believe the person responsible for these most recent edits is from the Filipino VCF church. But I could be wrong. I would characterize the changes as deliberate rather than frantic. I openly admit to my bias, in that there is a clear connection between EN and Maranatha - I don't think EN IS Maranatha, but is a clear successor. But the changes are equally biased in the opposite direction, to the point of removing factual information and links to non-official viewpoints. Including a link to this forum, which I believe has been established to encourage open, safe, and positive discussion and debate among current and former members & pastors alike. BTW, I've for the most part left Wikipedia alone - I added the link to the timeline and I think made one additional minor editorial tweak, and that's it.
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Post by ulyankee on May 5, 2006 15:11:51 GMT
helpful commentary, you also said, I believe personally, by the way that the whole maranatha discussion there is not really appropriate or helpful.
I agree that one can go overboard with the Maranatha history - I say that as someone who spent a lot of time and energy into putting together a history of both movements, to see if there were dots that could or should be connected, and finally having to conclude that Every Nation is less a deliberate attempt to continue Maranatha per se than a refinement of what Maranatha's vision and goals were, but as Tik has pointed out, not always in the right direction. It is (or has become) a different movement, but shares many of the same roots... it carries much of the same "spiritual DNA."
I also believe that in general, EN has evaded its history as much as possible while still continuing in some of the practices that unfortunately characterized MCM. The M word is a bad word at least in the US branch of EN. Some EN leaders have even gone so far as to "misrepresent" their active involvement and leadership in MCM.
And Steve Murrell has recently discussed MCM by name, rebuking the control that is alive and well in EN today and saying the M word in that context... admitting that MCM is the root.
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jonesy
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by jonesy on May 5, 2006 20:23:11 GMT
Funny how some institutions consider their longevity as an asset and rightly so. Others offer other assets, energetic vision, unique approaches, or position in a particular area to function well, all inclusive as a positive. The history of E/N found in Maranatha could be deemed an asset if they grow beyond the areas which were found to be faulty. Afterall, Edison electric advocated the use of Direct Current in the distribution of power generated by their company. The fact that we use Alternating current instead as successfully proposed by Westinghouse doesn't diminish the present day existence on Con-Ed the power generation and distrbution utility giant. They grew, and were inclusive in the use of more effective means of utilizing their resources. Edison's quixotic behavior isn't dismissed or hidden, he was in fact quite an unpleasant fellow. Maranatha was the beginning of a movement that had much in the way of immaturity and other quixotic behaviors, that E/N grew from this probably means that another genration of leadership will emerge someday from E/N. Our participation in the progress of this as well as the body of Christ in general through our insight and comment is a part of that growth. That the internet is in existence today and offers a forum to opine is merely a consequence of the culture we live in. Someday some other form of expression will superscede this one, what I hope is that we allow growth t occur personally as freely as we seem enamored with numerically. John-at the beach.
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Post by speakword on May 11, 2006 14:47:28 GMT
By the trunk we have Thelma and by the tail we have Blueboy. Which part of the elephant do you feel, see, smell, touch or hear? I started clicking on the dates on this page and it was interesting to see the developments. BTW I did try my hand at scrubbing the elephant clean myself. I think there are more talented zookeepers available. Have a go! Come on. Is it going to be Chimp, Chump, Champ or Chomp? I don't think we need to split hairs on this, but a good discussion and debate should help clear things up in this zoo. en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Every_Nation&action=history
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