Post by jonmoseley on Oct 16, 2006 13:58:25 GMT
What needs reform is this discussion group and those moaning in it. Read Matthew 18:15-17. Your Lord and Savior has COMMANDED YOU (in the red ink) what to do and how to do it. It's not just a good idea. IT'S THE LAW.
How is it that you propose to "reform" a church for being unbiblical WHEN YOU YOURSELF ARE ACTING UNBIBLICALLY?
What kind of "reform" is this that DOES NOT FOLLOW THE BIBLE yet purports to seek a "reform" to make a church more Biblical?
I left Every Nation / Morning Star in Sterling, Viginia a couple of years ago because I was not getting anything out of it.
If Brett Fuller would sit down with me and talk about improving his minisrtry and his church I could identify dozens of areas where improvement is possible and should take place. I see problems.
BUT YOU ARE ALL BADLY OFF-BASE YOURSELVES.
Despite many prolbems with Every Nation that I could see, part of the reason I left, what you must confront is THAT EVERY NATION IS *BETTER* THAN 90% OF THE CHURHCES ON THE PLANET.
What you oppose so strongly is the Bible itself and Jesus. Seeking to flee th discomfort of God working in your life -- and beleve me it can hurt -- you seek to blame a church and a ministry, rather than accepting God's minisrtry in your life.
Should you stay in EN? I did NOT. I looked at what I needed NEXT in my life and I could see that I was not going to get what I needed from Brett Fuller's church. But that was because of where I was after 20 years as a Christian and what was going on in my spiritual walk. That was because Brett Fuller has decided to reach a large number of people at a fairly simpliistic level. Brett Fuller has decided to build wide, not deep.
However, your complaints here are often downright bizarre.
Could I make a lst of ways that EN could and should improve? You bet! If I spent dinner with Brett, I could suggest a lot of concerns and areas of necessary improvement.
BUT YOU COULD SAY THAT ABOUT ANY CHURCH?
I would like to see what church you think lives up to your unreasonable standards. I would love to go visit that church with a pad of paper and apply your unreasonable standards to the church that you propose as beting better.
SHOULD EVERY NATION LISTEN to your concerns? You bet. And if there is anyone thing I would criticize it is not absorbing and listening to PRIVATE, INTERNAL discussions aimed at continuously improving and making mid-course corrections.
BUT LET'S TRY THIS: YOU GO TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH and say "I have some suggestions on how you should change. I love your fancy buildings and all, BUT I THINK THE POPE HAS IT WRONG on a few things. Let me show you the error of your ways."
OH, YEAH, RIGHT! YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF RECEPTION YOU WOULD GET ASKING A CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CHANGE BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO. DREAM ON !!!!!!
Well then how about an Anglican Church? Surely they would rearrange their liturgy, their method of worship,their church governance, their programs, their messages TO SUIT YOU AND YOUR CIRTICISMS. No? What a surprise!
Well, then how about a Baptist church? I would love to listen in as you go to a Baptist church and tell them they are wrong and need to change. They might politely listen. But when you refuse to take no for an answer, as you have done here, I would bet you would eventually get the same response as you complain about with EN.
SHOULD BRET FULLER CHANGE? That is his responsibility before God. He has no choice, no option, no refuge. God demands that those in leadership do their very best. It is Brett's responsibility before God to LISTEN to the criticism and RESPOND with heartfelt change.
But is it your role to invent, exagerate, and fabricate complaints against Every Nation? Your role is different. Again, let's try out your approach with a Catholic Church and see how well that goes down.
So if you want to "reform" any church, LET'S START WITH REPENTNACE. THAT IS, YOUR OWN. Not repentance with regard to the church leadership. They are servants and had better understand that Jesus washed his apostles feet, and instructed them to do likewise in leading their flock.
No, repentance in terms of the attitude of the heart.
iIs there any complaint on this board that you have not sent directly, IN PRIVATE, to Rice Broocks or the affected person PRIVATELY in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.
WHEN -- NOT IF -- Jesus asks you on the Last Day whether you followed his COMMANDMENTS in Matthew 18:15-17, are you confident that you can defend your actions?
And are you asking Every Nation to live up to a standard of perfection THAT NO OTHER CHURCH is being asked tol live up to?
How is it that you propose to "reform" a church for being unbiblical WHEN YOU YOURSELF ARE ACTING UNBIBLICALLY?
What kind of "reform" is this that DOES NOT FOLLOW THE BIBLE yet purports to seek a "reform" to make a church more Biblical?
I left Every Nation / Morning Star in Sterling, Viginia a couple of years ago because I was not getting anything out of it.
If Brett Fuller would sit down with me and talk about improving his minisrtry and his church I could identify dozens of areas where improvement is possible and should take place. I see problems.
BUT YOU ARE ALL BADLY OFF-BASE YOURSELVES.
Despite many prolbems with Every Nation that I could see, part of the reason I left, what you must confront is THAT EVERY NATION IS *BETTER* THAN 90% OF THE CHURHCES ON THE PLANET.
What you oppose so strongly is the Bible itself and Jesus. Seeking to flee th discomfort of God working in your life -- and beleve me it can hurt -- you seek to blame a church and a ministry, rather than accepting God's minisrtry in your life.
Should you stay in EN? I did NOT. I looked at what I needed NEXT in my life and I could see that I was not going to get what I needed from Brett Fuller's church. But that was because of where I was after 20 years as a Christian and what was going on in my spiritual walk. That was because Brett Fuller has decided to reach a large number of people at a fairly simpliistic level. Brett Fuller has decided to build wide, not deep.
However, your complaints here are often downright bizarre.
Could I make a lst of ways that EN could and should improve? You bet! If I spent dinner with Brett, I could suggest a lot of concerns and areas of necessary improvement.
BUT YOU COULD SAY THAT ABOUT ANY CHURCH?
I would like to see what church you think lives up to your unreasonable standards. I would love to go visit that church with a pad of paper and apply your unreasonable standards to the church that you propose as beting better.
SHOULD EVERY NATION LISTEN to your concerns? You bet. And if there is anyone thing I would criticize it is not absorbing and listening to PRIVATE, INTERNAL discussions aimed at continuously improving and making mid-course corrections.
BUT LET'S TRY THIS: YOU GO TO A CATHOLIC CHURCH and say "I have some suggestions on how you should change. I love your fancy buildings and all, BUT I THINK THE POPE HAS IT WRONG on a few things. Let me show you the error of your ways."
OH, YEAH, RIGHT! YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF RECEPTION YOU WOULD GET ASKING A CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CHANGE BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO. DREAM ON !!!!!!
Well then how about an Anglican Church? Surely they would rearrange their liturgy, their method of worship,their church governance, their programs, their messages TO SUIT YOU AND YOUR CIRTICISMS. No? What a surprise!
Well, then how about a Baptist church? I would love to listen in as you go to a Baptist church and tell them they are wrong and need to change. They might politely listen. But when you refuse to take no for an answer, as you have done here, I would bet you would eventually get the same response as you complain about with EN.
SHOULD BRET FULLER CHANGE? That is his responsibility before God. He has no choice, no option, no refuge. God demands that those in leadership do their very best. It is Brett's responsibility before God to LISTEN to the criticism and RESPOND with heartfelt change.
But is it your role to invent, exagerate, and fabricate complaints against Every Nation? Your role is different. Again, let's try out your approach with a Catholic Church and see how well that goes down.
So if you want to "reform" any church, LET'S START WITH REPENTNACE. THAT IS, YOUR OWN. Not repentance with regard to the church leadership. They are servants and had better understand that Jesus washed his apostles feet, and instructed them to do likewise in leading their flock.
No, repentance in terms of the attitude of the heart.
iIs there any complaint on this board that you have not sent directly, IN PRIVATE, to Rice Broocks or the affected person PRIVATELY in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.
WHEN -- NOT IF -- Jesus asks you on the Last Day whether you followed his COMMANDMENTS in Matthew 18:15-17, are you confident that you can defend your actions?
And are you asking Every Nation to live up to a standard of perfection THAT NO OTHER CHURCH is being asked tol live up to?