Post by StationAdministration on Apr 30, 2006 13:00:21 GMT
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 79
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 9:21 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have decided to start a new thread for "My Story" the Roots of MCM- since in Part 20 I will share some of my thoughts and "learning" on groups with sociological- cult like tendencies.
Phil- I trust this is okay with you since Part 20 is very different from what I have posted thus far.
For those of you who are interested
Part 20 and the end of My First Chapter:
Interregnum
everynationexposed.blogspot.com/
I expect this one to create some, ahem, "healthy", dialogue.
Blessings
Tik (tok) 84
annelewis
Intermediate Member
Username: annelewis
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.230.191.24
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:30 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, we have had very healthy dialogue about being co-conspirators in our own abuse before. In doing some more thinking about this topic, I have identified significant insights that have helped me understand my Maranatha years.
When I was in Maranatha, the only awareness or insight that I had was that anything bad or negative was my fault. And even if the other person or people or system was in the wrong, my unhappiness was still my fault since through a proper attitude I should be able to overcome any situation. This idea, which is so prevalent in many self help/self improvement circles is an oversimplification to the point of corruption of a solid Biblical attitude. But I'll get to that later. At this point, my identity was wholly and completely entrenched in the system that I could not/would not allow any differentiation between myself and Maranatha.
The next insight I had - and this is going to sound silly - was being able to admit that the system was wrong. It wasn't just me that was wrong, it was "them". I say that it would sound silly because in looking back it is so painfully and glaringly obvious that things were out of wack, how could I not recognize the overwhelming wrongness of the system and the people within it? But I couldn't. I believe that being able to not only admit that something was rotten in Denmark but to identify it and evaluate it speficially in terms of how it negatively effected people is a critical part to separation and differentiation from the abusive system, mindset and key players.
I believe this second stage is where we rightly feel our victimhood. I was in this stage a long time, mainly because I didn't pay attention to what was going on inside of me so I ignored it and consequently had a very unfulfilling spiritual life. This stage is easy to ignore since it is rather painful, not to mention anxiety producing and enraging.
(Message edited by annelewis on April 29, 2006)
annelewis
Intermediate Member
Username: annelewis
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.230.191.24
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:30 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The third insight is where we move past our victim status and realize that we were part of "them". We were co-conspirators. This understanding positions us to better enforce the boundaries in our lives since from it we can see what lured us, what hooked us, what sunk us and keep those areas of temptation and weakness before the Lord.
A word of caution, understanding that you were part of "them" before differentiating yourself from them will just get you thinking thoughts typical of someone who is still stuck thinking "it's all my fault". The only analogy I can come up with is "borg", "not borg", "was borg". Do not confuse "was borg" with "borg".
Any way, it is at this stage that we can appreciate the redemptive aspects of the situation as well; the good that came out of the bad. Or we can understand that maybe this was the lesser of two evils - what if having not joined Maranatha would have put me on track for getting an abortion or contracting AIDS? Knowing me back then that certainly would have been a possible outcome in my life.
You can make yourself crazy by trying to know what never happened so I use it as a tool to help me keep perspective. And as a word of caution: no one should ever stay in an abusive relationship to prevent the unknown. I believe that if you have the understanding that something is wrong and it's not getting better, you should act upon the understanding you do have and not the one you don't.
This segues - more or less - into my thoughts about the corruption of personal responsibility. The idea is often if not directly stated then at least strongly insinuated that if we take our share of responsibility for a bad situation that will "fix" it. I'm sorry but it won't. Other people have free will and may or may not respond how we wish them too. You can remove what's in your eye, but that doesn't fix what is in the other person's. They are still walking around unable to properly see and depending on the situation may end up trampling over clear eyed you, in which case, you get out of the way. Quickly.
There may be yet another insight to be had along this road of restoration - if so I have not yet had it.
And also, I presented these understandings as linear and progressive. This does not take into account our forgetful, only semi-rational nature which will often respond out of deeply ingrained habits and personality traits. But I believe as you prayerfully and consitently walk through a post spiritual abuse lifestyle you will "get it".
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 431
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:36 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response to part 20
First off 84 if you want to cut and paste any of my responses I posted or will post on factnet concerning your blog to your blog comments section feel free to do so.
That co-conspirator thing? hmmm, see with you it is a little differant because you were already born again before you got involved with Maranatha. In my case I was not I knew about God but never knew him before having the gospel forcefully told to me at Maranatha. Do you kind of see what I am getting at? You can kind of divorce your salvation experience from Maranatha I can't. I guess I was a co-conspirator in my decision to stay in Maranatha in that I needed deliverance and I knew it was the best place to get it since some of the alternatives were far, far worse.
I did make a decision to be part of Maranatha and I would never want any outsider coming in and trying to deprogram the decision I made. Still I was exposed to the power of God in a mighty way how can I be a co-conspirator to that happening? The ministry hijacked our committment to God to themselves and trapped us I guess a rabbit is a co-conspirator if he gets trapped by a trap baited with a carrot but . I know I play a part but how much? It is like playing Poker and they have the God cards, 4 aces.
Like you said in the logic equation earlier concerning Sheila which led you to the false conclusion that she was in Satans camp back then.
It works kind of like this. Power of God is there. You repent and decide to serve God. Very quickly you realize there is something wrong here. You rationalize and ask yourself questions like: I made a committment to God and I want to walk out on the place I experienced him and the place that told me to serve him and I am committed to God? Then the ministry plays on the fear that if you leave your walking out on God and his best plan for you and you don't want to take that chance so you stay. I guess I am kind of a co-conspirator but it is more of a stretch for me than you.
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 432
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can a calvinist be a co-conspirator? Tik your sounding more Arminian than me.
coppertree
Intermediate Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 407
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.172.249.232
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 1:51 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\
Hi All-Catching up another math project dear to my heart as ever. I have been reading here and need to catch up a bit as I read this thread.I think I see value and points of crediable thoughts and points of view in all these posts here. And as I have thought about what happened, as I did have a special insight, and sometimes knew the back story, as to speak. There is a point in this group, al though if you born again here, it is harder to see. This is point is when you as a believer need to violate your conscience, or do something. As with me I thought that I was giving a word from the Lord at our staff meeting, as I had done many times before, and was recieved
alway by others in leadership. I was an elder.I gave words many time from the stage, they were accurate. These words were judged by others there. I believe in the gifts, and still do; but they are not the end to end all. I was given the left foot of fellowship, shortly after this. I was weird , my family and I were shunned, blacklisted, so to speak.
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 435
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 2:09 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well copper obviously God wanted you to leave. If you stand up and give a word or words to someone that it is the Lords will that they leave then these guys are going to pull the plug on you pretty quick.
coppertree
Intermediate Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 410
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.172.249.232
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 2:53 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all sorry I tried to fix pervious post , should read:
Hi 40 days, Thank you for your kind words. It is still difficult for me and my family. I still love the people in the group in His love. They were told that I and my family were Satan. These fellow Christians still run from me, now to this day. The group was told, after we were forced out that we left God; and that we were unclean.}
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.47.238
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 4:18 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How can a calvinist be a co-conspirator"
LOL!
Of course Calvinism concerns our ultimate destiny (God's destination of salvation or the destination we would choose if it were left up to us:hell) not our itenarary.
For example I can travel from Atlanta to Dallas by bus, car airplane differing routes with differing fellow passengers, some routes at great expense and hardship- But my ULTIMATE destination is Dallas.
No hyper me- we have free choice but not complete FREE will.
I love Spurgeons quote: Some trust in the free will of man but I trust in the love of my Master who reaches down and grabs the sinner and says "This one shall be mine he shall be my servant...and his great love sparks a love in our hearts...
there are some hypers that would disagree with me for sure
Blessings
Tik
(Message edited by Maranatha1984 on April 29, 2006)
j2theperson
Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 5:38 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***The third insight is where we move past our victim status and realize that we were part of "them". We were co-conspirators. This understanding positions us to better enforce the boundaries in our lives since from it we can see what lured us, what hooked us, what sunk us and keep those areas of temptation and weakness before the Lord.***
I never intend to agree or admit that I was one of the "them". I joined EN after having spent a lifetime in a spiritually abusive environment. I had no way of properly understanding what a healthy religious environment would look like. For that reason, although I neither grew up nor was saved in EN, EN was a continuation of my past, traumatic and unhealthy, religious environment.
I never chose to be a part of an abusive religious environment. I was born into it. I rebelled against it constantly, but, being a child, I had no way to leave, nor was I in a position to trust my instincts that things around me were horribly wrong. If I *had* ever been one of "them", I do not think I would have been so unhappy my whole life.
I left EN when I was 22, and that was the start of my process of turning my back on the entire spiritually abusive environment I had grown up in. If I went back to EN or another spiritually abusive church *now*, I would be one of "them". I would be a "co-conspirator". But, quite honestly, I don't believe I hold a lot of responsibility for what happened to me as a child or for the company I kept. I had no real choice in the matter.
(Message edited by j2theperson on April 29, 2006)
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.47.238
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 6:26 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I never intend to agree or admit that I was one of the "them". "
Each story will be different. THose of us who spent time in leadership bear a heavier burden.
Being a co conspirator in your case may simply be that you were involved in your own entrapment and that is all.
BTW this does not excuse the brutal nature of EN nor does it excuse the unGodly Leadership one iota.
If you were a child then all bets are off of course because you were no longer a free agent.
And for those who lead a child astray it would be better that they had a millstone tied around their necks.
E-mail me if you would like
Blessings Tick
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 79
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 12.96.65.83
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 9:21 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have decided to start a new thread for "My Story" the Roots of MCM- since in Part 20 I will share some of my thoughts and "learning" on groups with sociological- cult like tendencies.
Phil- I trust this is okay with you since Part 20 is very different from what I have posted thus far.
For those of you who are interested
Part 20 and the end of My First Chapter:
Interregnum
everynationexposed.blogspot.com/
I expect this one to create some, ahem, "healthy", dialogue.
Blessings
Tik (tok) 84
annelewis
Intermediate Member
Username: annelewis
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.230.191.24
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:30 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, we have had very healthy dialogue about being co-conspirators in our own abuse before. In doing some more thinking about this topic, I have identified significant insights that have helped me understand my Maranatha years.
When I was in Maranatha, the only awareness or insight that I had was that anything bad or negative was my fault. And even if the other person or people or system was in the wrong, my unhappiness was still my fault since through a proper attitude I should be able to overcome any situation. This idea, which is so prevalent in many self help/self improvement circles is an oversimplification to the point of corruption of a solid Biblical attitude. But I'll get to that later. At this point, my identity was wholly and completely entrenched in the system that I could not/would not allow any differentiation between myself and Maranatha.
The next insight I had - and this is going to sound silly - was being able to admit that the system was wrong. It wasn't just me that was wrong, it was "them". I say that it would sound silly because in looking back it is so painfully and glaringly obvious that things were out of wack, how could I not recognize the overwhelming wrongness of the system and the people within it? But I couldn't. I believe that being able to not only admit that something was rotten in Denmark but to identify it and evaluate it speficially in terms of how it negatively effected people is a critical part to separation and differentiation from the abusive system, mindset and key players.
I believe this second stage is where we rightly feel our victimhood. I was in this stage a long time, mainly because I didn't pay attention to what was going on inside of me so I ignored it and consequently had a very unfulfilling spiritual life. This stage is easy to ignore since it is rather painful, not to mention anxiety producing and enraging.
(Message edited by annelewis on April 29, 2006)
annelewis
Intermediate Member
Username: annelewis
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.230.191.24
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 6:30 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The third insight is where we move past our victim status and realize that we were part of "them". We were co-conspirators. This understanding positions us to better enforce the boundaries in our lives since from it we can see what lured us, what hooked us, what sunk us and keep those areas of temptation and weakness before the Lord.
A word of caution, understanding that you were part of "them" before differentiating yourself from them will just get you thinking thoughts typical of someone who is still stuck thinking "it's all my fault". The only analogy I can come up with is "borg", "not borg", "was borg". Do not confuse "was borg" with "borg".
Any way, it is at this stage that we can appreciate the redemptive aspects of the situation as well; the good that came out of the bad. Or we can understand that maybe this was the lesser of two evils - what if having not joined Maranatha would have put me on track for getting an abortion or contracting AIDS? Knowing me back then that certainly would have been a possible outcome in my life.
You can make yourself crazy by trying to know what never happened so I use it as a tool to help me keep perspective. And as a word of caution: no one should ever stay in an abusive relationship to prevent the unknown. I believe that if you have the understanding that something is wrong and it's not getting better, you should act upon the understanding you do have and not the one you don't.
This segues - more or less - into my thoughts about the corruption of personal responsibility. The idea is often if not directly stated then at least strongly insinuated that if we take our share of responsibility for a bad situation that will "fix" it. I'm sorry but it won't. Other people have free will and may or may not respond how we wish them too. You can remove what's in your eye, but that doesn't fix what is in the other person's. They are still walking around unable to properly see and depending on the situation may end up trampling over clear eyed you, in which case, you get out of the way. Quickly.
There may be yet another insight to be had along this road of restoration - if so I have not yet had it.
And also, I presented these understandings as linear and progressive. This does not take into account our forgetful, only semi-rational nature which will often respond out of deeply ingrained habits and personality traits. But I believe as you prayerfully and consitently walk through a post spiritual abuse lifestyle you will "get it".
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 431
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:36 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response to part 20
First off 84 if you want to cut and paste any of my responses I posted or will post on factnet concerning your blog to your blog comments section feel free to do so.
That co-conspirator thing? hmmm, see with you it is a little differant because you were already born again before you got involved with Maranatha. In my case I was not I knew about God but never knew him before having the gospel forcefully told to me at Maranatha. Do you kind of see what I am getting at? You can kind of divorce your salvation experience from Maranatha I can't. I guess I was a co-conspirator in my decision to stay in Maranatha in that I needed deliverance and I knew it was the best place to get it since some of the alternatives were far, far worse.
I did make a decision to be part of Maranatha and I would never want any outsider coming in and trying to deprogram the decision I made. Still I was exposed to the power of God in a mighty way how can I be a co-conspirator to that happening? The ministry hijacked our committment to God to themselves and trapped us I guess a rabbit is a co-conspirator if he gets trapped by a trap baited with a carrot but . I know I play a part but how much? It is like playing Poker and they have the God cards, 4 aces.
Like you said in the logic equation earlier concerning Sheila which led you to the false conclusion that she was in Satans camp back then.
It works kind of like this. Power of God is there. You repent and decide to serve God. Very quickly you realize there is something wrong here. You rationalize and ask yourself questions like: I made a committment to God and I want to walk out on the place I experienced him and the place that told me to serve him and I am committed to God? Then the ministry plays on the fear that if you leave your walking out on God and his best plan for you and you don't want to take that chance so you stay. I guess I am kind of a co-conspirator but it is more of a stretch for me than you.
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 432
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can a calvinist be a co-conspirator? Tik your sounding more Arminian than me.
coppertree
Intermediate Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 407
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.172.249.232
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 1:51 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\
Hi All-Catching up another math project dear to my heart as ever. I have been reading here and need to catch up a bit as I read this thread.I think I see value and points of crediable thoughts and points of view in all these posts here. And as I have thought about what happened, as I did have a special insight, and sometimes knew the back story, as to speak. There is a point in this group, al though if you born again here, it is harder to see. This is point is when you as a believer need to violate your conscience, or do something. As with me I thought that I was giving a word from the Lord at our staff meeting, as I had done many times before, and was recieved
alway by others in leadership. I was an elder.I gave words many time from the stage, they were accurate. These words were judged by others there. I believe in the gifts, and still do; but they are not the end to end all. I was given the left foot of fellowship, shortly after this. I was weird , my family and I were shunned, blacklisted, so to speak.
40days40years
Intermediate Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 435
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 17.184.103.245
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 2:09 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well copper obviously God wanted you to leave. If you stand up and give a word or words to someone that it is the Lords will that they leave then these guys are going to pull the plug on you pretty quick.
coppertree
Intermediate Member
Username: coppertree
Post Number: 410
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 172.172.249.232
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 2:53 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all sorry I tried to fix pervious post , should read:
Hi 40 days, Thank you for your kind words. It is still difficult for me and my family. I still love the people in the group in His love. They were told that I and my family were Satan. These fellow Christians still run from me, now to this day. The group was told, after we were forced out that we left God; and that we were unclean.}
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.47.238
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 4:18 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How can a calvinist be a co-conspirator"
LOL!
Of course Calvinism concerns our ultimate destiny (God's destination of salvation or the destination we would choose if it were left up to us:hell) not our itenarary.
For example I can travel from Atlanta to Dallas by bus, car airplane differing routes with differing fellow passengers, some routes at great expense and hardship- But my ULTIMATE destination is Dallas.
No hyper me- we have free choice but not complete FREE will.
I love Spurgeons quote: Some trust in the free will of man but I trust in the love of my Master who reaches down and grabs the sinner and says "This one shall be mine he shall be my servant...and his great love sparks a love in our hearts...
there are some hypers that would disagree with me for sure
Blessings
Tik
(Message edited by Maranatha1984 on April 29, 2006)
j2theperson
Member
Username: j2theperson
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 5:38 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***The third insight is where we move past our victim status and realize that we were part of "them". We were co-conspirators. This understanding positions us to better enforce the boundaries in our lives since from it we can see what lured us, what hooked us, what sunk us and keep those areas of temptation and weakness before the Lord.***
I never intend to agree or admit that I was one of the "them". I joined EN after having spent a lifetime in a spiritually abusive environment. I had no way of properly understanding what a healthy religious environment would look like. For that reason, although I neither grew up nor was saved in EN, EN was a continuation of my past, traumatic and unhealthy, religious environment.
I never chose to be a part of an abusive religious environment. I was born into it. I rebelled against it constantly, but, being a child, I had no way to leave, nor was I in a position to trust my instincts that things around me were horribly wrong. If I *had* ever been one of "them", I do not think I would have been so unhappy my whole life.
I left EN when I was 22, and that was the start of my process of turning my back on the entire spiritually abusive environment I had grown up in. If I went back to EN or another spiritually abusive church *now*, I would be one of "them". I would be a "co-conspirator". But, quite honestly, I don't believe I hold a lot of responsibility for what happened to me as a child or for the company I kept. I had no real choice in the matter.
(Message edited by j2theperson on April 29, 2006)
maranatha1984
Member
Username: maranatha1984
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.218.47.238
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 6:26 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I never intend to agree or admit that I was one of the "them". "
Each story will be different. THose of us who spent time in leadership bear a heavier burden.
Being a co conspirator in your case may simply be that you were involved in your own entrapment and that is all.
BTW this does not excuse the brutal nature of EN nor does it excuse the unGodly Leadership one iota.
If you were a child then all bets are off of course because you were no longer a free agent.
And for those who lead a child astray it would be better that they had a millstone tied around their necks.
E-mail me if you would like
Blessings Tick