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Post by helpfulcommentary on Apr 9, 2006 2:36:54 GMT
I for one am sickened by almost everything having to do with the way money is handled in EN. Based on what I understand about Maranatha, we're not nearly as authoritarian as they were, but we are worse in our handling of money.
Look at the big picture: -- Apostles are known to receive extremely high pay 500k+ -- Senior Pastors are also very well paid 100k+ -- Staff members are poorly paid -- Campus workers have to go to other members of other churches to get their pay. -- Volunteers are overworked.
What's wrong here? Those who work hardest not only make very little, but spend a large part of their year asking Christians from other churches for it. So while the pastors and apostles feel entitled to their high salaries, everyone who is working so hard to build their vision is barely paid. It's un-Christian, and its insulting.
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Post by StationAdministration on Apr 9, 2006 8:49:12 GMT
It does seem to become a management issue as far as junior and volunteer staff goes as well. In my neck of the woods, volunteer staff would phone at least once a year canvassing for financial support. When I explained that I pay my tithes and offerings and any staff support should come from that I think I made some people very upset, but surely a church should operate out of expenses and have many left over for charitable works etc.?
When I did mission work we were told that we could not appeal from the pulpit for financial support as the tithes always went down when that was done. Again the "robbing God" thing.
The problem with maintaining a professional clergy who believe that they are entitled to prosper makes it awkward when poor people float around all the time as well. Is that also a problem of DNA?
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Post by ulyankee on Apr 9, 2006 13:47:10 GMT
Helpful Commentary - I believe one can add another layer between the top apostles and senior pastors who make on average between $200-$250K US.
I know that even "outsiders" in the Nashville area are questioning how so many pastors/leaders there live in one subdivision alone where the homes/mortgages are in the $600K range, which would roughly translate to a $200K income each. That's not counting those in the other subdivision where the homes are significantly more.
I have to say that my reasons for leaving had to do with the theology and control, not the money. My former church had serious issues with control, but they seemed a little more honest with the money locally, particularly when it came to building funds and such. I think the control issues tend to vary more from church to church in EN - more a culture rather than something specifically enforced by one man like with Bob Weiner. But I'm just sickened by what I've since learned about the money. What do you think about World Partners, which in the most recent revision of the 2010 Initiative (3/06) is even more strongly emphasized as a key "financial pillar"? Or the recent discussions on FACTNet about Champions for Christ, which lines up with the public record btw?
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Post by Big Picture on Apr 9, 2006 20:27:49 GMT
I don't think that there is anything wrong with having something like World Partners... in fact it's a nice idea. The problem again is when you look at the bigger picture... The churches do not support missions or anything other than salaries or facilities out of the church budget, and then when they need money for missions, they invent World Partners. It was especially gross with Phil asking for "your most generous CASH gift" and then finding out that it's not going where it's supposed to go.
In fact, again my problem with EN finances stems back to the general approach that all of the money is spent on the big salaries, and then when they need money for anything else, it's time for a special offering.. that is unless you are a campus minister, in which case, no offering, just go find some other Christians who might help you and we'll be glad to let you work for us.
I'm not sure how they justify this to themselves, really. There must be some deceptive philosophy that allows them to do this without pangs of conscience, but I don't know what it is.
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Post by ulyankee on Apr 10, 2006 11:55:19 GMT
Big Picture, I agree, there is nothing wrong with having a World Partners program per se. I used to be a "World Partner" and had no problems with it whatsoever. However, as a World Partner, I was led to believe that the money went primarily to help with missions and church plants. Not to pay the salaries of those "overseeing" missions and church plants, ie top leadership based in LA. I had NO CLUE when I was a member that missionaries and church planters were responsible for raising their own support through MPD. That was never mentioned as a giving option in my local church... just World Partners.
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Post by maranatha84 on Apr 12, 2006 12:45:42 GMT
"Based on what I understand about Maranatha, we're not nearly as authoritarian as they were, but we are worse in our handling of money. "
This is correct- Phil, Rice, Steve (maybe not sure) realized that there was no $$ from college students and that people were not going to put up with the Authority stuff to the extreme- so they changed the "message" and went where the money was
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Post by maranatha84 on Apr 12, 2006 12:51:52 GMT
"Based on what I understand about Maranatha, we're not nearly as authoritarian as they were, but we are worse in our handling of money. "
This is correct- Phil, Rice, Steve (maybe not sure) realized that there was no $$ from college students and that people were not going to put up with the Authority stuff to the extreme- so they changed the "message" and went where the money was
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Post by helpfulcommentary on Apr 21, 2006 3:53:53 GMT
I'm not convinced that it was as diabolical as you seem to suggest. The temptation for money is always there even for those who start out with the right motives.
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Post by philiprosenthal on Apr 21, 2006 7:41:53 GMT
Actually, you don't need to be so devious or change your message to get money from students. You just keep them in the organisation till they graduate and if they were tithing as students, they will carry on tithing as graduates. University graduates tithing means a lot of money as the movement matures.
During the early days of His People, when we still had no money, I said to the treasurer that there was a risk that one day we would have lots of money and then put our trust in money instead of God. Sadly, that is exactly what happened to the movement. Also, an unreasonable proportion of that money ended up in the personal pocket of Paul Daniel, the founder.
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